Could this include a reversal of "From Abraham to the nations" to "The nations back to Abraham" as the fullness of gentiles enter God's kingdom and draw some Jews to jealousy?
I had a Hebrew teacher once say that Joseph’s brothers thought he was a gentile. They assumed their brother was long dead. But God — he came to maturity in the land of Egypt. He looked like an Egyptian, sounded like an Egyptian and was second in command in Egypt - they didn’t recognize him. He had a gentile bride and gentile children.
But he knew them - forgave them - loved them - saved them. Yes, I think it is definitely an “already but not yet” thing but the fullness of time will come.
And on the topic of Joseph’s son, David Mitchell wrote an incredibly fascinating book called “Messiah ben Joseph” - not what you think. I loved it.
Part of the drama of the story of Joseph is Judah's growth as an intercessor. At the end of the age, there may be a national/corporate echo of that dynamic:
"Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall a land be born in one day? Shall a nation be brought forth in one moment? For as soon as Zion was in labor she brought forth her children" (Isaiah 66:8 ESV).
Thanks! For the sake of those who may not have followed as closely with you in the last two paragraphs: you referred to Judas who betrayed the Lord and the chief priests and religious authorities who paid the silver. And, of course, Jesus, the legal son of Joseph. Interesting that Preterists might disagree as to whether the story is or isn't over regarding Zech 12-14. Personally, I am undecided as to whether or not this passage may have been partially or fully fulfilled in AD 70, when Jesus said he would come with the clouds and seen by that generation, by those who pierced him (Matt 24, Rev. 1:7).
Agreed. I get the indecision. The mourning of Zech. 12, however, seems to be redemptive, being provoked by the outpouring of a sprit of grace and leading to the cleansing of Jerusalem, which doesn’t fit AD 70 to my mind (or the run-up to it), hence I’m in the ‘partially’ camp.
Do you see an intentional use by the gospel authors of the numerical value of these gifts of silver (10+20), and the 30 pieces of silver Judas receives as a price for betraying Jesus? For example, Matthew 26:15 uses ἀργύριον like the LXX Gen 42—44.
I guess I see the significance of thirty pieces of silver as the price of a slave, per Exod. 21.32. That was the value, implicitly, that Judah put on Jesus’ life.
The shrewd way Joseph tested his brothers, when they came to Egypt to buy grain, is a model for how victims of abuse can wisely test their abuser(s) to see whether and to what extent the abuser(s) have truly repented and reformed.
Testing to see whether the abuser has a changed heart (and thus will no longer perpetrate abuse) is very important in cases of interpersonal abuse, especially in domestic abuse scenarios where the abuser typically feigns repentance and reformation.
Could this include a reversal of "From Abraham to the nations" to "The nations back to Abraham" as the fullness of gentiles enter God's kingdom and draw some Jews to jealousy?
I had a Hebrew teacher once say that Joseph’s brothers thought he was a gentile. They assumed their brother was long dead. But God — he came to maturity in the land of Egypt. He looked like an Egyptian, sounded like an Egyptian and was second in command in Egypt - they didn’t recognize him. He had a gentile bride and gentile children.
But he knew them - forgave them - loved them - saved them. Yes, I think it is definitely an “already but not yet” thing but the fullness of time will come.
And on the topic of Joseph’s son, David Mitchell wrote an incredibly fascinating book called “Messiah ben Joseph” - not what you think. I loved it.
I loved it too. A great book.
I imagine they did think he was a Gentile, yes. Much like Jethro’s daughters thought Moses was.
Part of the drama of the story of Joseph is Judah's growth as an intercessor. At the end of the age, there may be a national/corporate echo of that dynamic:
"Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall a land be born in one day? Shall a nation be brought forth in one moment? For as soon as Zion was in labor she brought forth her children" (Isaiah 66:8 ESV).
Thanks! For the sake of those who may not have followed as closely with you in the last two paragraphs: you referred to Judas who betrayed the Lord and the chief priests and religious authorities who paid the silver. And, of course, Jesus, the legal son of Joseph. Interesting that Preterists might disagree as to whether the story is or isn't over regarding Zech 12-14. Personally, I am undecided as to whether or not this passage may have been partially or fully fulfilled in AD 70, when Jesus said he would come with the clouds and seen by that generation, by those who pierced him (Matt 24, Rev. 1:7).
Agreed. I get the indecision. The mourning of Zech. 12, however, seems to be redemptive, being provoked by the outpouring of a sprit of grace and leading to the cleansing of Jerusalem, which doesn’t fit AD 70 to my mind (or the run-up to it), hence I’m in the ‘partially’ camp.
Do you see an intentional use by the gospel authors of the numerical value of these gifts of silver (10+20), and the 30 pieces of silver Judas receives as a price for betraying Jesus? For example, Matthew 26:15 uses ἀργύριον like the LXX Gen 42—44.
I guess I see the significance of thirty pieces of silver as the price of a slave, per Exod. 21.32. That was the value, implicitly, that Judah put on Jesus’ life.
Thank you! I think I meant price rather than gift, but you understood me.
The shrewd way Joseph tested his brothers, when they came to Egypt to buy grain, is a model for how victims of abuse can wisely test their abuser(s) to see whether and to what extent the abuser(s) have truly repented and reformed.
Testing to see whether the abuser has a changed heart (and thus will no longer perpetrate abuse) is very important in cases of interpersonal abuse, especially in domestic abuse scenarios where the abuser typically feigns repentance and reformation.
I’ve written a series about this.
https://cryingoutforjustice.blog/2021/05/07/joseph-tested-his-brothers-digest/
Genesis 37:28 . My version says 20 pieces of Gold. Does it matter. I tried to reply but your website doesn't work right for replies.
Odd. The text definitely says ‘silver’. What version do you have?
I use the Septuagint as my Old Testament, Lexham, and NETS. That would explain it.
My Scripture version says 20 pieces of gold, does it matter ?
In Matt. 26.15?